The Xbox 360's HD DVD versus Sony's Blu Ray

Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:47 pm

I ran across this interesting side note, amidst the rambling's of Sony's supposed uber-floating point power within the upcoming PS3 compared to Microsoft's multi-VMX lockable L2 multi cored chip, yadda yadda...

Sony is working on a new format for their DVD storage, and it is called Blu-Ray. A Blu-Ray disc appears to store up to 50 GB of data, compared to today's just-under-10 GB for commercial silver discs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

For the Xbox 360, however, the media standard will be HD-DVD (High density DVD), which can store 15-30 GB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD

Support for HD-DVD comes from not only from companies like Toshiba and Sanyo, but also from Major motion picture studios New Line, Paramount, Warner Bros and Universal Studios.

Who is providing support for the Blu-Ray? One company. That's right. Sony. End of list.

At this point I would like to ask the forum readers about their thoughts on these two formats.
(A) Is it probable that HD-DVD will be more compatible and 'home-user friendly' versus Blu Ray (backups and homemade media with PC burners)?

(B) Blu Ray discs will be more expensive to manufacture and replicate versus HD DVD. However, Blu Ray can hold more data. Which aspect is more important? Cheaper discs or more storage? Keep in mind that newer games for the next gen will use much less vertex data (information used to render an object in a game), and rely more and more on things like 'procedural synthesis', where a game engine will take one 'base model' of an object and create variations of this object within the game (opposed to repeating objects like the same five boulders on a level used over and over).
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-1.ars/6

(C) I like to think of the PS3 as being a specialized 'drag car' that is built specifically for racing a quarter mile strip, but cannot handle other forms of racing on circuits or even around the block as it were. The 360 may technically have less physical 'raw horsepower' versus a drag strip special, but it may be used in a variety of races including 'multiplayer', online media access', 'old skool emulation of the immortal ROMS', and other races as well. Which one is more important: Raw 'drag strip' (IE game-only) horsepower or console versatility?

(D) Arguably the 360 will be much easier to customize than the PS3. Will people want the same silver PS3 that their friends have and a billion other people, or will they want to personalize their consoles more to their liking? We have all seen the many examples of 'modded' Xbox cases with everything from glowing jewels to elaborate front-panel LCD displays.
How many PS2 owners have pimped their PS2 rides? Personally, in real life, I know of not a one, although I have seen a few examples on the Net (never in real life).

So allow me to open up this discussion for anyone who plans on buying a next gen console. What do you think about the future of games and consoles? Friendly and intelligent replies only, please. I am too old for any baby arguments.

I know this is a long post so I will leave it open-ended.

PS if anyone has programming experience and would like to share their technical opinion on the new (and somewhat mysterious) 'procedural synthesis' I would love to hear your thoughts on the impact on the future this has!

Thanks
Racer823

Cool

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:00 am

Racer823 @ wrote:

For the Xbox 360, however, the media standard will be HD-DVD (High density DVD), which can store 15-30 GB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD

Xbox 360 will use a standard DVD9 drive Wink

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:16 am

If Microsoft is going to release the 360 with a DVD9 drive then that will be the single biggest mistake that they could ever hope to make in console history.

Do you really believe that the 360 will ship with a stock 12x DVD rom drive?

The current lead read speed for OEM drives is 16x, and that's right now.
(example)
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1419116&Sku=N52-1262

So you can go out and buy an OEM that burns faster than the 360 can read? For $39? Bollocks, I say. How could a next-gen console be outfitted with an already under-spec drive? The entry for '12x drive' in their 'released specs' is smoke IMO. They are pushing so hard for High_Def, and yet it is near impossible to compress a Hi Def video (even WMV9+) onto one standard DVD.

This whole 'HD-DVD' speculation is a hot topic to be sure. I find it very hard to believe that Microsoft would undermine Microsoft by settling for a 12x standard reader. What will people think when the new HD-DVD movies come out, and they can't even watch their new (just-in-time-for-the-holiday 2005) discs in the 360? So much for the 360 being the 'entertainment center of the future!'

OK let me revise and ask, 'in the event that MS ships the 360 with HD-DVD drives, what are your thoughts on A through D in my above post?

XBOX360 or XBOX 1.5? It's your choice, Bill. Crying or Very sad

(sorry I will calm down now..sigh.)

Racer 823

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:11 am

Racer823 @ wrote:

They are pushing so hard for High_Def, and yet it is near impossible to compress a Hi Def video (even WMV9+) onto one standard DVD.

I think your right, it just doesn't add up wtf is going on?

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:56 pm

Racer823 @ Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am wrote:

Do you really believe that the 360 will ship with a stock 12x DVD rom drive?

Yes it will, its 100% confirmed.

However they have plans for HD upgrades in some way shape or form. Check the xbox-scene news. There was a J Allard/Balmer interview that spoke of it Razz

It will already be able to play HD from the media center connecter for example.

Team XLink Moderator Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 1536

[MF]mkjones wrote:

However they have plans for HD upgrades in some way shape or form. Check the xbox-scene news. There was a J Allard/Balmer interview that spoke of it Razz

It will already be able to play HD from the media center connecter for example.

since opening the console you void warrenty, so i'm gussing it won't be an internal drive upgrage. And if they release USB drive that will sux... why the fook should people upgrade, when they can get Sony blu-ray, and external drive looks crap IMO. and company can fail as Sega 32x, MegaCD and 64DD was big mistake for console upgrade. Rolling Eyes

Lot of people bought the PS2 was b'cos it had the DVD drive/player, as a standalone DVD players were expensive that time. So i'm gussing it will happen again, people will buy PS3 just so they can play blu-ray and so on...

Racer823 wrote:

If Microsoft is going to release the 360 with a DVD9 drive then that will be the single biggest mistake that they could ever hope to make in console history.

yeap... but not single biggest mistake, this happend before... Sad

so Xbox 1.5
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8376/Kutaragi-Xbox-360-is-Simply-Xbox-15/ Rolling Eyes

Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:32 pm

I have to say that even though I've gleaned many enjoyable hours from the Xbox 1.x platform, it saddens me to think that MS will decide this, if they do.
I am no marketing expert, but for those who already run a media center now, and already have an upgraded hard drive, the 360 appears to be more of a 'media sidegrade' with an game 'upgrade'. Will this really be worth $400?

One can only hope that Ballmer gets 'on the ball' so to speak. Such a decision will be a critical error in their marketing plans, IMO.

Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 9:57 am

It wont be that kind of upgrade. They wont give you a HD drive or anything, it will be some kind of software/windows connect thing.

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:36 pm

Have to wait and see, I won't comment yet until I know for certain what kind of DVD drive they are going to ship, but I really do think Blu Ray will be a wasted format, just a fad gimmick that will go down the pan, same as all the supposed Hard drive / Online luxury of the pS2 that never came about.

Personally .... I will probably end up buying both consoles, kills off all arguments that way lol

A console without a form of hard drive storage is a definate no no in my book tho.

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:30 am

who needs HD-dvd's or Blu-ray when a standard Dvd could hold up to 800gb's.

Iomega Corporation announced that the United States Patent & Trademark Office (USPTO) recently issued a highly notable patent to Iomega for its work with nano-technology and optical data storage. On April 12, 2005, U.S. Patent No. 6,879,556 titled Method and Apparatus for Optical Data Storage was issued to Iomega. This patent is the first in a series of nano-technology-based subwavelength optical data storage patents sought by Iomega.

The patent covers a novel technique of encoding data on the surface of a DVD by using reflective nano-structures to encode data in a highly multi-level format. This technology, termed AO-DVD (Articulated Optical - Digital Versatile Disc), allows more data to be stored on a DVD and could allow future optical discs to potentially hold 40-100 times more information with data transfer rates 5-30 times faster than today's DVDs, and at similarly low costs.

This invention was recently recognized as a winner of the Nanotech Briefs' Nano 50 awards in its product category. The Nano 50 awards are given to the "best of the best" in the industry - the innovative people and designs that will move nano-technology to key mainstream markets.

Iomega is working to investigate the commercial feasibility of this format and other nano-structural data encoding formats. One possibility being investigated, termed NG-DVD (Nano-Grating - DVD), uses nano-gratings to encode multi-level information via reflectivity, polarization, phase, and reflective orientation multiplexing. Iomega is concurrently evaluating and developing appropriate partners to leverage this intellectual property for producing commercial data storage devices.

"Subwavelength optical data storage can provide an array of mechanisms by which the state of a focused spot of light upon reflection can be precisely changed. This is the key to new commercially interesting multi-level optical data storage that this technology represents," commented Fred Thomas, Chief Technologist, Research and Development, Iomega Corporation.

"The nano-replication technologies that are used to fabricate these structures at low-cost are just emerging from various labs. I believe the scope of Iomega patents issued and pending in this area, in conjunction with these exciting new nano-replication technologies, will make this a fertile area for optical data storage development and innovation for years to come. As high definition content becomes more pervasive, Iomega sees significant technology partnership and licensing opportunities for this intellectual property."

Thomas will present an overview of subwavelength optical data storage technology at the prestigious Information Storage Industry Consortium (INSIC) symposium in July in Monterey, CA.

Kai Regular Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 87

heh thats in the way further future, consumer grade lasers will probably be more precise and cheaper by the time that AO stuff comes out.

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:47 pm

hmm... X360 maybe be Xbox 1.5... ABd not as powerful as the PS3... But you still can't get past how gay that PS3 controller is going to be to use for Shooter games. 'll probably end up gettign both.. But... I think X360 will have a better onine experience than the PS3... And thats what I'm all about.

Team XLink Moderator Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 1536

J Allard Interview

talks about how they could save 3 gigs on audio compress, online service, modding X360 and how piracy can be voided, and the overall "balanced" service the Microsoft wants to give. when Sony cannot. Smile

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:40 pm

i dont see how sony's service is going to be that bad... all you need is a place to play with your friends online. adding invites to gaves isnt going to be that hard for sony.

Whatever happens to the community for sony and MS is one thing, but the main reason i liked xbox games over sony games was the sound. i would be really upset if all the sudden games for MS started using dolby pro logic instead of digital - your kinda working backwards. and why would u add HD game and then reduce the quality of the audio - if that is what is going to happen. stupid.

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:55 am

[_Dp_]~Jonny~ @ Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:47 pm wrote:

hmm... X360 maybe be Xbox 1.5... ABd not as powerful as the PS3...

I heard once the gamecube was in theory good enough to run a really advanced Artifical Life game, the answer by the developers was that in theory capable, but it wasn't in practise.

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:41 pm

A hard drive is standard but we really havent been informed about blu rays just yet unless you went to E3 which i didnt and trying to find a video demonstration of the actuall ps3 (just the ps3) is hard to find, really impossible. How much space is on a blu ray wouldnt imnd finding out. How much space?? I think the ps3 is more powerfull but crummy games, xbox 360 has harddrive memory cards good power and halo 3 so really hard drive but i would have expected the xbox 360 to have blu ray compatibility considering it is the "next wave" NEED INFO!!!

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:33 pm

u want more information:
http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-x-2077-x-x-x

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:52 pm

This will not be as big a deal as the many people think it will be and the xbox 360 will be for games and online gaming and the price of the hardware is extremely cheap for something that contains three processors at over 3 ghz and a graphics card that is woth over 500 dollars alone in a pc and will not be availabvle to put in a PC for at least a year and a half, also price the processors alone and you come up with a very competent price for the package, the price of the ps3 will be higher as they have to get the money back on the blu ray drives.

I am not bothered about playing hd dvd movies on my games console, I will buy a player once they are released.Remember too that MS are working to do a worldwide release in all the major territories and this is hard enought without putting an unproven technology(the HD dvd drive) which will be in short supply from a manafacturing point of view into the machine, the drives will also be too expensive to manafcture on this kind of scale for a launch this xmas.

I hope you guys will join the 360 revolution and not be put off because you cannot play movies, which are not even available on a mass scale, on the machine.Microsoft are doing a great thing by releasing next gen this year and letting us play the next wave of great games this xmas instead of next.