Proposed new signup procedure

Kai Admirer Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 369

idea, if clan leaders are let in after an application much like the clan arena except with different req's then it would be a way to get clans in.

Kai Beginner Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 2 Location: Brazil

Here some considerations about the process:

During my reading I've realised that the main problem is not to ban the cheater/racist and so on, this is easy, the main problem is to avoid the cheater/racist from entering the system, and if he does, take action to keep him away.

I must say that this is a hard thing to do and as I told before the big drawback of the tree system is the fact that the user can use the ban system for personal revenge, and this discussion should not be avoided, injustice with good players can ruin the whole thing, can make people very angry and so on, so the cheater problem may be partially solved but the bad use of the ban system can cause an even bigger problem.

The majority of systems focus on trying to ban the cheater in a unique ID basis. So say, you get the XBOX MAC address and match with a tag, then when you ban a user, you ban his XBOX as well. Of couse a user can fake his XBOX MAC address and so on, there'll be no 100% secure system.

In my opinion, a system that provides a user based permanent ban list is very funcional. For example, I have user A in my ban list, if I create a private room, this user will never be able to get in my room. The user tag can be matched with the XBOX MAC address, so this makes it more difficult to the user to get in my room again.

Main problem is to unique ID the user, the solution TD is proposing is to tight the entrance, I personally disagree with this because the majority of people are good players and they should not be punished because some stupid jackasses are messing the house, we should try our best to ban this people, not restrain the entrance.

The creation of a hieraruical tree would bring to life a universe of politics and not fair bans on XLink, and considering the human history so far the prospects of such political powers do not loo good, but I might be wrong. Problem is that a fair good XLink player can and will be tempted to ban that guy he hates so much, the guy who kicked his ass in the game and so on, and this is not fair.

I'd rather go with a set of measures involvingperonal banlists and methods to as far as possible unique ID the user.

Best luck for all XLink Team on the decision, you guys have great software and I hope the best solution comes out of that healthy discussion.

Anderson Fortaleza[/b]

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:17 pm

DK.SwiftTank @ Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:47 pm wrote:

How about setting it up so when you play on kai, you get a rating like someone else had said. However, your rating is brought up by amount of time played as well as amount of times you have been booted or banned from rooms.

I can see that being a problem for myself and any other good Halo 2 player because, at some point, we have been booted or banned from a game simply for winning. I understand the process you have set forth would be to eliminate such things from happening but, I don't want to be banned just for winning games Very Happy

.

Team XLink Administrator Joined: 03 May 2004 Posts: 2075

Alright...

First off, let's not presume all new users are pricks. I believe in giving people enough rope to hang themselves. I also believe in rewarding good behaviour and believe in people's ability to learn from past mistakes.

So, like our driver's licenses, I prepose a points system. You automatically get 7 points to start (pick any number you like). Points are awarded or taken away in two ways:

1. Automated:

You get booted from a private room, you loose a point.
You type inappropriate words in chat, you loose a point.
You host a game for 20 hrs or more, you get a point.

2. Arbitrary

Those with the 10% in the points scale can award or remove 1 point per player per month. Reasons for adding points include: good sportsmanship, helping out new users, etc. By allowing people to police themselves, we remove the whole 'dictator' issue.

Now, those with 0 points are not banned, they are sent to Kai Pergatory Wink

The wastelands as TD phrased it. They can redeem themselves through community efforts as outlined above.

To me these seems like the most organic way of creating the happy equilibrium we are looking for. It keeps everyone on an even playing feild without penalizing new comers or permanently stigmatising offenders. It will allow Kai to grow on its own as a user-driven community.

Acknowledge good efforts.
Reform thyself.

-prestige

Kai Regular Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 155

I think this is a great idea, but i have exactly the same arguments that 'bongloder' in that since I dont use Kai that often, I wont be able to get in, but other than that, Bravo on the new plan of attack.

I just dont want to be left out feeling like a fat guy in a little coat.

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:26 pm

Well, behavior is a problem and I am thrilled that it is being addressed. When I started at the beginning of RC2, I made the choice between XBC and here. I did so at the time, soley because of the people I encountered on Xlink. Though the numbers were very few and the games were fewer.....the people I encountered were top notch. I've logged some serious hours on Kai. It started because of the people and I am still here for the people. Besides the users, The developers and admin actually listen to the users. The combination is infallable. I remember when we always wished there were more people.......always! wishing there were more....Quality members got uverrun by quantity.
To me this was like an exclusive club and I really think the user base grew like a tree anyway. People heard mostly through word of mouth. This sounds kind of the same, only a person would be responsible for those they enlighten.
When there were few members, I can say for sure that people did feel responsible for who was playing and the behaviors. I used to serve alot and it was very important to keep things clean and friendly. It still should be important and maybe handing off some responsibilties can help us get back to that kind of atmosphere. ........I'm rambling

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:27 pm

This is what i think should happen:

you make evo8 so that people can join up much the same as you can do with evo7 today by just going through the registration process. They can play games on evo8 much the same as they did on evo7 with access to the same arenas and such. But then u also have a special arena/mode where you implement the hierarchy tree and all that which TD has suggested, new, uninvited users will have unhindered access to all features of kai except for this new arena/mode.

Also we need to be able to change our usernames without making a new account if u dont want so many unused accounts on kai.

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:40 pm

This all sounds good to me, i know ill have no problems with the new system.

The only thing i have to disagree with is the use of my name on the front page,
but i guess I'm the perfect example and a paradox to this new system anyways. Laughing

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:53 pm

if you start with invites i say start small. even when gmail beta started you might have only receieved about 5 invites to start.

You might say i error on ignorance a bit, but i would think that cheating is one of the main problems we are trying to solve here - i say this because i have never heard/experienced any sort of racism on this system yet. I say this because just like here in the US government tries to take over too much power in certain ways. for example, if you at playing in a game and someone makes racial comments to another person, most (if not all games) allow for any user to mute another. Im not saying we completely dismiss the fact that this is offensive and annoying to many users, however the mod in the arena should take the action of banning the indiviual from that arena.

I think it is going to be very hard to keep some of these cheater/racists out of kai in any event. people will soon be sending themselves invites to alternate email address. I dont see why it is necessary for anyone to change their kai name as well. it is not the same name that you play with in the game, just used for the forums. pick something and stick with it. it gets annoying that every days someone else needs to change their name - would you change your phone number that often???

anyhow, people keep talking about how easly it will be to get banned, but how do people who make mistakes or are unfairly marked by a member up the tree removed from the bad list? this is another thing to think of.

one thing to think about is, even if there was police all over the world, you still cannot solve crime... some people just can't get along.

edit: i wouldnt mind an adult only section to play..... you could base that on you profile information... however that will not keep youngsters from entering false information.

I know this is a very hard task to even take up - as it is much easier to point out the flaws/holes in any system, however i respect the idea of kai trying to clean up the problems in some of the userbase.

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:54 pm

This is bullshit, it doesn't make any sence. If people are assholes and delay the countdown, what is stopping them from banning everyone?

Questions...

If my xlink name is TuT, and I play halo using the name cheater05, how are you going to know that cheater 05s signed in under kai with the name TuT??

How many invites will one get? And how do they accrue?

What's going to stop someone from going in and banning everone they see. It will take at a minimum a couple hours to get them unbanned.

How quickly are people banned once someone bans them, instant? Or does it take effect at next sign in?

total BS this is...... This service is going to turn as ghey as xbconnect.

jherre6

Team XLink Administrator Joined: 25 Apr 2004 Posts: 1871

XC @ Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:40 pm wrote:

This all sounds good to me, i know ill have no problems with the new system.

The only thing i have to disagree with is the use of my name on the front page,
but i guess I'm the perfect example and a paradox to this new system anyways. Laughing

wow thats the best post i've seen from you for ages.

From what I can see from this new system, its like the google invite system, but if you give an invite to someone and they misuse it the big G comes and breaks your legs as well as kneecaping the offender.

Great news.

The only thing I worry about is new lonely userswho come to kai and have to beg, borrow and performe sexual favours to become a part of the community.

However I'm all for a seperate section that you can only be invited too.

I can see it working but only along side a public open to anyone system, and that system will still need moderation, otherwise new members will be subjected to a load of cheating, foul mouthed users, while all the decent people are playing in their little utopia.

The hierachial tree will work, you would only invite people you can trust, because you dont want your "off spring" to bring shame on your "family". and in this case shame may mean a weekend playing single player games.

Kai Regular Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 82

The only thing I can see wrong with the hierachial tree are, as a few others have pointed out, those users who are power-hungry and will ban other users for no real reason at all.
I know of a couple users who, even now, say how much they wish they had "administration" powers so they could ban the people they don't like.
And quite a few times I've seen two users arguing for whatever reason, and there is no way to tell who is telling the truth or who is really in the wrong...so even if the person higher up in the tree was the one in the wrong, the person lower would be getting banned for no reason at all other than rightly defending himself. Obviously that's just an example, but I think it'll turn into a big "he says, she says" ordeal.

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:22 pm

I have been a user of xlink kai for awhile now. Kai has become alot of fun with its big community that it is at now. Halo 2 has been one of its most popular games where i'm seeing about 330 players in america alone at times. Just within a few months i have been hosting games with a faster bandwith and in a few days will be getting fiber optic to host games without lag. Even though i have been hosting I don't think i've met anybody that would invite me. On another note within the last couple months i've noticed alot of late night racist on here. I feel the same discust and if I was running the show would be fustrated like someone spray painting my home and car with black paint(black paint being foul play). I think the issue should be in the hands of the host and in the hands of the users.

For instense aol has a little button you can always click to notify its service of any foul play. Kai should get a few members that are trusted. Some that stay up late night like I do and see some of this happening. I think that when this is recieved by kai one of kai's trusted members can go into this arena(which hopefully they have the game for) and act as a silent policemen. If they also notice this problem that person or persons or banned and recieve a notice why they are banned. A e-mail address should be required now for this to happen.

In any case the idea should be rethought before taking it to extreme measures as has been sudjested. Alot of user enjoy the diversity in a large community where it is fun to play together. The idea sudjested will lower this community that makes kai fun. We need a better defense for this home and at the same time let users enjoy its splender. We don't need a 10 foot wall where only those can enjoy with a invite. The home becomes like a rich country club

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:22 pm

Note: Trust = Rank = Feedback

//////////////////////////////////////////
Introduction: Our Community

I really enjoy XLink, even though I mainly play with strangers. I'd like it to remain the high quality service that it is. I am just pointing out ideas and features that I think will be helpful to The Daddy. We're in the brainstorming part of the design process here.
http://www.uidaho.edu/idahotech/process.html

Problem: Jerks in our online Community.

Goal: No jerks.

We are aiming to protect our Community from jerks. We do this by policing the community. All users will be able to police the community by giving feedback. The higher your feedback/trust/rank the more powerful your feedback will be.

//////////////////////////////////////////
Chapter 1: Private Property

Public property naturally gets abused. This includes things that are abundant and/or free. Private property naturally gets respected. This includes scarce things that cost something to get. Make Kai accounts more like private property. I'm sure that if you look around you can see this trend everywhere. Another way to state this is to look at the law of supply and demand.

Let new people in at the ground level, otherwise we are alienating good gamers and new friends. More on this and private property under PlayMyth.

//////////////////////////////////////////
Chapter 2: Feedback and Accountability

eBay has what I think is a great feedback system. People get +, neutral or - feedback based on individual encounters. Kai users could give and get feedback. Perhaps each user could give just 1 feedback to every other user per a certain amount of time. Kai users could create arenas that only allow users with good feedback. This lets everyone play, and lets you filter the jerks out of your games.

Playmyth.net discourages account abuse by only allowing ISP email addresses for accounts. That's right, you can't use Hotmail, Yahoo, GMail or whatever. ISP email accounts are more scarce, and that will make the XLink accounts more valuable. This is a step toward private property. Because we don't want to comletely exclude anyone, limited accounts could be offered to free email users. Perhaps those accounts would not be able to give feedback or ascend beyond a certain rank.
http://playmyth.net/user.php?op=register&module=NS-NewUser

//////////////////////////////////////////
Chapter 3: It's all about Feedback

We rank people so that trusted users can make a bigger difference in our community. All users will be able to police the community by giving feedback. The higher your feedback/trust/rank the more powerful your feedback will be.

A military style ranking system would be simpler than a user tree because there would be no need to keep track of the complex relationships between thousands of users. The downside is that it doesn't track who let who into the community. But that doesn't matter if we have open doors at the ground level.

Higher rank means that you are trusted, and that your feedback is more powerful than lower ranked memebers. The Daddy would be the 5 Star General. He would have authority over all users, just like the tree. Promotions could be based on number of games played, time as a user, number of positive feedback given and received from different users. We must be careful with the design of the system, we don't want a country club. Feedback from higher ranks would count more, that will make rank valuable to users. You should be able to lose rank by getting negative feedback. That is a step toward accountability and private property. Plus, you could get a cool military rank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_officer_rank_insignia

//////////////////////////////////////////
Chapter 4: Trust and Punishment

Trust: (how to get it)

Punishment: (what will happen to jerks)

//////////////////////////////////////////
Conclusion

Making accounts more like private property will mean that people respect them more. Make accounts difficult (but not impossible) to get. Create a feedback mechanism to punish bad people. Don't make individuals too powerful over other individuals. Make XLink accessable to advanced/veteran users and casual users. Methods to do this:

Thoughts?

JG

Team XLink Moderator Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 1536

taz @ Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:06 pm wrote:

The only thing I worry about is new lonely userswho come to kai and have to beg, borrow and performe sexual favours to become a part of the community.

LMAO so just a thought...

we give new user to make a temp account, and if used some sort of "Proving Ground" where new user need, say, 2 members to vote, but that member can't be anyone but someone is a veteran to kai or atleast used Kai for 6 month to 1 year. And if the new user gets in and does bad things then it will come back to the voters. But after say 6 month has passed, then, s/he will be a veteran (high rank) them self and will be responsible for their own action Confused

example of "proving ground"
http://www.bst-secure.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=46

Kai Beginner Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12

TD, I have a (somewhat selfish, but still logical and reasonable) suggestion to supplement your thoughts on starting the initial userbase. First of all, you will notice from my post count (or lack thereof) that I don't frequent the forums very often, but I do keep touch via RSS and felt the need to jump in here. I don't need to - Kai just works for me and the friends that I get to use it I help to get it working myself rather than dump them here to get help. However, I play almost every day on XLink and have been since XLink was using version numbers (pre-VII).

Now the suggestion: Why don't you grandfather in, say, the first 1000 registered users in the current database (I'm not even positive if I was in this group, but I know it was very early on) and put them on probation however you see fit until they are deemed worthy of being in the tree with the admins, mods, clan members, etc. You could even have them in a seperate branch (purgatory) for a time and then merge them with the "known good players." The plus side to this is that it will kick-start the uptake of the new database so that there won't be a lag-time where people might forget about XLink (how dare they!) and/or replace it with something else.

Another quick thought: you might want to allow the Evo VII users to continue using VII in a seperate VII database until they are (or aren't, depending on if they deserve to) brought into VIII (IIX??).

Hopefully I haven't repeated something already stated here.

Finally, since I hardly post here, thanks for giving us "kia xllnk"! (no, I not kissing up here)

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:29 am

This is just great..

THE WHOLE SCENE WANTS ME DEAD!!

TD you don't know how much trouble you just caused me, every were i go I'm being banned! no1 wants me around them ppl that i thought were my friends are tell me to go fuck myself every i go.

If you guys ever wanted your revenge on me for the the shit i caused yall.. you just got it.

TD plz take my name off the front page! i beg you ill do anything! ill leave kai nd never come back just plz take my name off the front page! plz b4 this gets any worse then it has 2 be, you guys really hurt me badly

guess how many friends i have in the pirating/modding scene now.. ZERO!
this is very serious business, i told you guys i was sorry for the trouble Ive caused yah b4 you cant you just let it go?

SOME1 PLZ TAKE MY NAME OFF THE FRONT PAGE!!

Team XLink Administrator Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 3354

You know XC, I just cant find it in me to believe you. I have known of your BS for some time now and tbh, you always say you will change. But never do. I wash my hands of you as well only because you remind me of my little brother. No matter how much you try to do to help him, he always wants more and never changes.

Kai Beginner Joined: 19 Dec 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Canada

I've been using kai for about a year now, mostly playing HALO 2,(id prefer HALO 1 but theres never ppl playing it wen i am) And mostly over the lest 3 months or so ive noticed the cheaters/racists/13yr old wankers problem. Now im with TD on the fact that there has to be something done about this. I can handele the littlbe 13 yr old brats. They usually get pretty quiet wen they get schooled over and over again. But the racist and cheaters piss me off something fierce. Now i like the points system, but i cant see too many ppl getting alot of positve feedback. I kno if i got my ass handed to me by someone whos just plain better i probally wouldnt go give em a positve point, but i also wouldnt be a bitch and go give em a neg pt cause theyre better than i am.

If there is a way u could either somehow lock theyre user name to theyr player name, or to the xbox. that would help, because wen i host i never can find whos who in my games so i cant kik the cheaters w/o acidently kicking the good players too.

I also think a way of recruitin unknown memebers has to be established. All of my friends on kai and i usually play sys link with wen we're on kai. meaning we pretty much only play online wen theres like 4 or more of us in a apartment, so i kno id never get an invite.

I kno this has all been covered, but just wanted to toss in my 2 cents

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:54 am

Perhaps we could have a one or two week period before the release of Kai 8 where TD and fellow admins scoured Kai 7 looking for people they thought might be good additions to the new system. Although it would be time consuming for you guys, one idea is that you could host private Halo 2 arenas where you personally interviewed people via headsets. If you clearly marked a period that this would be occuring on the main Team XLink website, then this would hopefully give people enough time to get on Kai and attempt to obtain new accounts. Once you reached around 200-300 new accounts then you could stop and count on those people to invite new members. At least we could then create an initial database with a decent number of people and we could also satisfy any worries people may have about not getting in. This way they could at least have a chance even if they didn't know anybody else higher up in the service.